Spray Foam Risks, Dangers, Odor, Smell: Is this Insulation Toxic?
| Health | 50 Comments
Spray foam insulation is a booming industry. It’s a huge money-maker and where there is lots of money to be made, there is lots of brainwash going on—a huge marketing machine that’s bigger than one can comprehend.
Naturally you won’t find much online about spray foam insulation risks, disadvantages, and especially health risks associated with spray foam. In other words, the marketing machine is so strong, the truth has been wiped out off the internet. (See how unwanted content is removed from the internet). All you need to do is publish enough propaganda to push everything in Google to page 2. (Almost no one clicks through to page 2…) Even forums are controlled directly or indirectly by the industry: by the manufacturers themselves, by installers, and the best gimmick are organizations and publications set up for the sole purpose of promoting specific products, using inconspicuous names, such as the ‘science of building’ (you did notice I changed the name a bit, didn’t you :)), ‘fine home building’, etc.
So there are these guys who write articles, pretending to be an authority in something, such as ‘how to build great homes’, ‘how to properly insulate your cathedral ceiling’, etc. in an infomercial type setting. The marketing message is hidden over many steps. Marketers know you will ‘triangulate’ to assure yourself you are buying the ‘right thing’ for your house. By triangulate I mean to look for several independent info sources describing the same thing. That’s why it’s crucial for the industry to pull in academia, and seemingly independent ‘research’ organizations that focus on home building issues. In reality, lots of money is being exchanged under the table to ensure certain technologies are highlighted and recommended by the ‘expert’. Naturally spray foam is at the top of the list, since it’s involves huge profit margins for everyone involved. And that’s because people believe they will save a lot of money. Where does this belief come from? It’s shaped through lots and lots of marketing.
In internet and various in-print publications spray foam is glorified as the perfect thing to do when you renovate or build a new home. Basically the industry took a commodity, low-cost building material (fiberglass insulation) and replaced it with a better performing, very expensive, and potentially toxic to human health alternative under the ‘green building’ umbrella. Nothing about spray foam is green: you don’t save green (dollars) by buying it as it costs way more than all other insulation options, and its potential long-term savings are overstated. From a green ‘tree-hugger’ perspective, the last thing you would want is petroleum based products polluting the environment. But it all makes sense for the installer who promises you huge energy savings and quotes an unbelievable sum for the project, not telling you the truth about what you are really getting into. Perhaps if spray foam was a natural substance with zero off-gassing, no harmful chemicals, and recyclable, my perspective and opinion about it would be different; however, the industry doesn’t have a reason to make spray foam less toxic, since no one really knows about the health risks anyways. You won’t see it on TV, you won’t hear it on the radio for a good reason. It’s all paid. The industry makes sure no main-stream media will report anything negative. Well it’s very similar in most industries, isn’t it? When all major stations are corporate controlled, there isn’t much free press to begin with.
What is Spray Foam Insulation
Check out this article Chemicals in spray polyurethane foam: How can something so toxic be considered green? (http://www.treehugger.com/green-architecture/chemicals-spray-polyurethane-foam-how-can-something-so-toxic-be-considered-green.html) It describes the major chemical components of spray foam. The typical paint type odor of spray foam comes from isocyanates, which are very reactive and known to cause cancer and other health problems.
Spray foam is typically mixed on site (!) Unlike your IKEA mattress or pink XPS board (extruded polystyrene) that come from well-controlled factory environments, spray foam installers mix the chemicals on site at the tip of their spray foam gun when the chemicals are sprayed out and hit the wall or ceiling. That’s why they have to wear full body protection, obviously, as this type of gas is extremely toxic.
Is Spray Foam Toxic?
But, so we’re told, “the off-gassing is finished after the first 24 hours and it’s safe to enter your home”.
Just like IKEA tells you to vent the mattress for 3-4 days for it to “regain its shape”, which is non-sense, because the rolled up mattress instantly goes back to its shape. It’s the off-gassing of harmful chemicals that is the problem. By the way XPS boards also off-gas for some time. Why is there off-gassing?
When the chemicals that are to make up the foam are mixed together in a factory, a well-controlled environment, some in-balances between two pairs of chemicals (say you have too much A or too much B) leave reactive chemicals inside the material. In other words, A and B are to fully connect, but some A has escaped and now there is too much B, or vice versa, and now B gets trapped inside the foam. Isocyanates can become trapped in the foam and then slowly react with moisture in the air or other chemicals in the foam. Slowly these substances are given off to the surrounding air….not just for 24 hours; rather, many, many years.
What Makes Things Worse, What Can Go Wrong?
Because it is impossible to mix chemicals on-site perfectly and it’s impossible to control the environment, the in-balance is almost certain to happen. In other words, your spray foam will stink, perhaps not enough for you to smell it; that depends on the person. But the off-gassing is likely to go on indefinitely at varying levels.
The chemicals are supposed to be kept in a certain temperature and pressure range. The surrounding air at the project site needs to be in a certain temperature range and humidity range. Too much or too little of one or the other will cause different chemical reactions. Also the wood that the spray foam is sprayed on needs to be dry and warm within certain ranges. The house itself needs to be ventilated well during the process and for 24 hours afterwards. So as you can see, we haven’t even touched on the complexity of this chemical subject but simply listing a couple dependencies illustrates that things aren’t as simple as they are presented by the industry and spray foam installers.
Then during application, spray foam might not stick well for many reasons. Or it’s applied too thick. Or it’s applied in layers and one layer doesn’t stick to the next well. Or one layer isn’t allowed to cool off and the second is applied too early, which again traps chemicals inside the foam. Lots and lots of things can go wrong and barely anyone will tell you much about it because there is simply too much money in the game, so don’t expect honesty from this industry.
The industry prefers to blame the installer for everything. Just like if you buy crappy windows that leak from day one, they will blame your installer, too. If your car didn’t last beyond 100,000 miles, obviously it’s your fault; it’s your driving style, etc. Excuses are plenty, and somehow it’s never the manufacturer’s fault.
Why I Don’t Recommend Spray Foam
A friend of mine once said, ‘think of the most bizarre conspiracy theory of how X might be exploiting people. It’s likely they are already doing it and much worse than that, since they had much more time and resources to think about ways to cover it up, too’. When you raise children, you mind has to be in negativity mode. You don’t think ‘all is well’, you think of the worst scenario at all times. They will stick their finger in the electric receptacle, swallow the coin on the floor, put the lead paint in their mouth, swallow the toy, etc. A little bit of this catastrophic thinking will go a long way when you renovate or build a new home.
Imagine the whole house stinks like a paint factory. Imagine you and your kids getting headaches all the time. Imagine your kids running downstairs in the middle of the night, feeling sick with a migraine, coughing, telling you it stinks up there and they can’t sleep.
Imagine people coming to your house and noticing the intensive, sweet paint kind of smell.
Now you are starting to think…crap! What do we do next?
Pull down the drywall, which costs tens of thousands to install. Start scraping between each stud or roof joist. Bag everything. Sand the wood down to get the smallest pieces. Imagine how much labor this is going to be. Perhaps 100 to 300 man-days for a house or more. Imagine the drywall needs to be hung again, how much will this cost you?
Removal is possible with open cell foam, which is soft, but closed cell foam is really hard and difficult to remove or scrape. It’s hard like a potato, good luck trying to remove it.
While open cell foam smells like paint, closed cell foam has a rotten fish smell to it.
But either way, the odors are absorbed by the surrounding materials, which are studs, roof joists, sheathing, panels, etc. Perhaps you can paint them to minimize odors, perhaps you may have to remove the entire frame of your house.
Worst Case Scenario
Perhaps you may have to tear down your entire house because there is no way to remove the chemicals.
Look at this video of a real family (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPxg9IlYnWg titled “Demilec Sealection 500 Open Cell Spray Foam nightmare odor”) suffering from a spray foam installation that went wrong. They had to tear down half their house!
These aren’t exceptions. What’s exceptional about that story is that it appeared on TV news! What’s going on out there is that many people are sickened by spray foam in their own house and don’t know it yet because they never thought it’s the spray foam causing it. Perhaps they don’t even know their property has spray foam behind the drywall. And when you contact manufacturers and installers about spray foam odors and dangers, what do you get? A wall of denial!
Either they don’t smell anything or they tell you ‘all materials give off an odor’ which is “harmless”.
Good luck fighting a multi-billion dollar industry on your own!
So even if the chance of the worst case (house teardown) happening to you is 1:10,000, is it worth taking the risk and losing hundreds of thousands of dollars AND putting your health and that of your family at risk?
And, if perhaps the risk of being sickened slowly over a decade is 1:100, would you want to put a dollar amount on it? Would you want to risk various health problems in the long-term, including the potential for cancer, just to save a few dollars on your heating and cooling bill?
If you ask me, the risks outweigh all potential benefits. And let’s not forget, spray foam is not cheap to begin with either.
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50 Comments
My family and I had to move out of our home and never were able to go back in due to improper closed cell spray foam. It has been one long nightmare. I would never recommend spray foam to anyone.
Hi Judy
sorry to hear about that. It’s terrible. We’re lucky we didn’t use the closed cell foam indoors, which pretty much is not removable as you say.
The other parts of the house with closed cell BASF foam (the blue spray foam) stank like rotten fish for about 3 years and then luckily it stopped. Wasn’t an issue because it was a crawl space. Had it been inside the house we would have went straight to court….
And from what I have experienced the legal route isn’t easy, cheap, nor effective…. I would definitely not recommend spray foam, not even to my ‘worst enemy’ (if I had one(^_^))
Hope the foam didn’t affect your health in the long term
Good luck!
Judy what caused your initial concern?
Hello! I had spray foam insulation put in my rim joists in my basement on August 29, 2016. Also that day cellulose was put in the attic. My face has been swelling since. I have been to many various doctors, Now I’m seeing a environmental doctor. A attic guy thinks its the spray foam. I was thinking I should have it taken out but cannot find a company that does that. What do u think I should do?
Hi Beth
I hope you are in good health! There is a chance it is indeed caused by the foam, especially if it stinks or gives off a smell that is similar to paint, rotten fish, or something sweet.
If it is the soft type of foam, you can use a nail stripper, it works well, or a small shovel. You’ll need lots of trash bags and lots of people. Then use a water-based primer to spray paint the wood after the foam is gone. That worked for me.
It’s not cheap let me warn you!
Good luck!
Hello there! A few weeks ago I’ve had my cellulose insulation replaced, thanks to Harvey got wet, for the foam kind when they installed it was an awful smell they said it would go away i 48 hrs. We’ve been busy repairing our home, not living there yet, but the smell like wet paint after a few weeks is still there. I’ve hired a HVAC contractor and told me that, when they encapsulated the attic they still should have a fresh air breathing intake. can anyone help with some info thank you
Hi Alfredo
is it open cell or closed cell foam? The open cell is the soft foam.
I had a similar situation and had to rip everything out. You will notice as temps go down the smell will go away. However it’s likely they messed something up and the odors will return next spring when the roof heats up again.
Since it’s weeks and it still stinks, the foam is likely bad. I hope I’m wrong…. Removing it is no fun and isn’t cheap either. If you smell it next spring keep pressuring them to pay for removal costs.
Document each day when you notice a smell and take note of the outside temperature and humidity levels. If possible also record temp and humidity levels inside your house. This log will help when you go seek legal advice against the installer.
Also there are lawyers now who specialize in spray foam issues; you may want to contact them next year if need be. Until then, try to keep the windows open if possible
Hope this helps & good luck!
In the comments section of your Spray Foam article you state there are attorneys that specialize in this specific litigation.
We have just left our home after 2 months due to the smell and health issues from the spray foam. We are on the front end of the correct path to remedy the situation. We have spent over $12000.00 already.
Manufacturer has taken samples. A month for results. Several have and can attest to the issue and agree it’s the spray foam.
My questions are – Can you provide a list of lawyers that are experienced with this? Do you know of testing/analytic companies that can determine if it is the spray foam for certain?
Thank you
Hi Shelly
I’m sorry to hear you have trouble with your spray foam installation.
You may want to search for “VOC emissions spray foam testing” or something like that.
I found this one, for example: https://www.intertek.com/analytical-laboratories/allentown/voc-emissions-testing/
When I analyzed my situation, I found that the easiest and least painful course of action was to remove the foam myself (using contractors that I manage)
and I got the spray foam company to agree to pay for part of it, on top of the full refund.
However, the main argument back then wasn’t that the foam stank, that would have been legally the road to nowhere, but the fact that their foam had holes and the foam layers didn’t stick on each other well.
Taking things to court can be very nerve-racking and may not lead to the results you are looking for.
However, I know a lawyer and will contact him to see if he is still active in this area.
Good luck!
Savas
hi,
i had the yellow spray foam installed in my attic two days ago and there,s a strong paint smell in the adjoining rooms. Nothing elsewhere. i am concerned as i have a 9 yr old. is it impossible to do anything about it? Will the odor never go away?
The smell is reducing as we speak and i have the window open in the top floor. Is there commonly a smell after insulation that goes away after a couple of weeks?
Hi Priya
the smell might go away and as we are approaching winter it will likely become unnoticeable. However there is a chance the odors might return in late spring when the attic heats up again. Another source of problems is that some spray foam companies close vents in the attic and spray over them. If you now have an unventilated attic, it may turn into a sauna like mine did, especially if the house wasn’t built with a vented roof system.
If the smell doesn’t go away after a week I would start documenting everything, such as strength of odor and what time in the day it becomes noticeable. Try to get ‘witnesses’ into your house so you have proof in case you have to take legal action against the installer later…or at least threaten to do so.
If your kid starts developing a sore throat or a cough I would definitely recommend sleeping downstairs for a while
We need specification of PU FOAM, FOR protecting hebat and fire prrof.
Hello, i had a barndominium built recently and insulated with closed cell foam in attic and exterior walls. It’s been about 5 months since the foam was installed and the odor of paint has been really bad. Like you said, it’s worse in summer. I’m not sure what to do now.
HI Mark
I’m sorry to hear that you also suffer from bad spray foam. To give you an idea, the area where my closed cell spray foam was installed (BASF) also stank for 3 years but then it finally stopped. I guess some reactions need to finish and the heat and moisture in the summer appear to be helping.
The icynene open cell foam we had installed 7 years ago was removed (I don’t think that’s an option for you as closed cell foam is really hard to remove) and the odor finally faded after 7 years(!), it’s now only a little bit of an issue in May/June when the winter moisture in the wood (attic) is drying out. The odor is present in those spring months, let’s say about 5% as strong as it was once.
What helped us “survive” the “spray foam chemical warfare” in the meantime was an ERV on each floor. I now trashed them as well because they weren’t washable. It’s very important to use an ERV with washable core I found out the hard way; otherwise, there will be dirt in the air that may give you other respiratory problems…. But ERVs do a very good job exchanging the air with less energy waste. My tip: try to install a filter by the air intake to protect your ERV and piping from dirt and mold. It’s amazing how much dirt is carried by air and how nasty looks after just one year…
Good luck!
Savas
Thanks for the tip. I did find out that it was open cell used to insulate the house, not closed cell as was previously mentioned.
Hello Savas, my HVAC contractor suggested I purchase a ULTRA-AIRE 98H whole house ventilator/dehumidifier. Do you know the pros and cons of using this over an ERV? Thank you for your time.
Hi Mark
I’m not familiar with that device. However, I can say a few things regarding ERVs vs ventilators. It all depends on your climate and what you do in your house, i.e. how much cooking, how many people, do you have a gym, etc. These activities require more fresh air. But if your climate is very hot and humid or cold and hence dry, running the ERV will be expensive. Also how often do you ventilate manually by opening windows? Personally I like the idea of having both types of systems, but energy cost is a major variable to consider.
ERVs can dry up your house to dangerous levels in the winter. In the summer they tend to bring too much moisture in, if you live in a hot humid climate.
Ventilators and dehumidifiers don’t bring in fresh air. There should be a percentage of fresh air exchange happening in a house to prevent toxic buildup and to ensure enough oxygen is available, especially in tight homes like Passivhouses.
Savas
Hi Savas. I live in North Texas, so it does get humid and hot in summer. Also, I rarely have windows open. If I did go with ERV, I would also get a whole house dehumidfier to compliment the ERV. Would ERV combined with a whole house dehumidifier make more sense than a whole house dehumidifier/ventilation system? Also, in your last response, I didn’t understand what you mean by ventilators don’t bring in fresh air. Thank you for your time! – Mark Herke
Had Ct Basement Seymour Ct use spray foam to connect crawl space wall to foundation wall and immediately encapsulated with white vinyl plastic after installing 4 lifts for upper sagging floor, maybe 3 hrs all that done and NO ONE CHECKED work that I believe two men who hardly spoke english and so sick have lost most furniture curtains everything due to off gassing and they won’t take out and help and gov won’t help.
I would hire a handyman to take it all out in the worst case. They can use a tool called “nail stripper” to take it down fast, as long as it is the soft kind of foam, the open cell kind. Then paint over it with water based primer. That should do it, but it will cost you, it’s very labor intensive. As I mentioned above, see if you could perhaps install an ERV at least for a while to improve air quality
Hope this helps & stay healthy!
Savas
I built an indoor residential basketball gym on my property. Thank goodness it is a separate structure from my main house. We insulated it with spray foam. After the foam was installed, there was an obvious sweet smell in the gym. I had the air tested by 3 different companies. They all said it was safe. I let my son use the gym. He was in there almost every day for several months. He developed significant respiratory symptoms, and I don’t think he will ever be 100% from a respiratory standpoint. It has now been two and a half years later and I just let him back in the gym. First, we tried a massive carbon air filtration system. Second, we tried adding ventilation. Eventually, I had all the walls torn down and the foam removed, as best we could. Replaced it with natural rock wool. But we still have foam in the attic. We added a massive fresh air ventilation system using a device called the “Coolerado.” And we put a 600 cfm exhaust fan in the attic to allow room for the fresh air be added and also to make it to where the there is no air going down from the attic into the space (instead air is being suck from the space into the attic). Now, when you walk in, you would not notice any smell. I still smell a hint because I know what it smells like. Two things to take away from this: 1) don’t ever use spray foam; and 2) air testing reports are not worth the paper they are written on (all 3 reports I obtained varied wildly; they have no idea what is in the air).
Hello Jim
my apologies for the delay.
What you describe is a very frustrating experience and unfortunately, the spray foam industry gets away with it.
Unless someone clearly establishes cause and effect, in court, such as how these spray foam particles in the air cause respiratory inflammation, the industry won’t change anything about their products or practices.
I also have first hand experience with the issues you describe. The health effects of ‘bad spray foam’ are serious and real. Unfortunately installers and Icynene representatives deny any issues with their products. They even claimed there was “no smell” noticeable, which is of course ridiculous. When I went to the installers building to pick up my refund check (plus some cleanup money I managed to negotiate with them to avoid legal arguments), the exact same sweet foam smell was noticeable as soon as I went through the door. I felt sorry for the office workers….
Now, you may be wondering how I got the check. I documented everything, but with the smell I obviously got nowhere. I didn’t bother testing the air as I expected the results to be of no use in court. I documented the fact how the foam absorbs moisture and releases it again when it get hot. This is very noticeable in the spring time when the first hot days arrive, which is also the time you will notice the smell the most. Moisture is stored inside the foam and is released when it heats up. Under the roof you get temps above 140F. The moisture appears to be also triggering some chemical reaction, which makes the smell stronger. Since the moisture was excessive under the roof, reaching over 80% RH, I had a good argument saying the foam was unacceptable.
I found others online reporting the same issue. I had also confirmed the moisture-retaining characteristic of open cell foam experimentally by simply placing a large chunk of foam in a sealed transparent plastic bag with a hygrometer inside, then exposing it to heat. The absolute humidity inside the bag would rise as the sun was beating on it. The foam acts like wood. It absorbs moisture in the winter, especially the wood under the roof. Then in the spring when it gets hot, it can’t hold the moisture anymore and dumps it in the surrounding air. The interesting detail is the enormous volume of foam you have under the roof, compared to the rather few cubic feet of wood material. That’s what makes the difference.
Spray foam cleanup under the roof was very difficult. Luckily we used open cell foam, not closed cell foam. We used nail stripper tools that roofers use and the job took months. The underside of the roof is in my opinion the most important one to remove, because that’s where the heat is in the summer and that’s where the moisture goes and gets ‘stored’.
What I should have done to improve the cleanup, and I only did it partially, is to spray paint the exposed wood with water-based primer after removing the foam. This appears to help. I would also definitely seal the attic completely from the space below with a thick plastic sheet to prevent odors coming down but also to prevent moisture from going up into the attic space.
I have still probably about 50-100 cubic feet of this foam in the walls around the floor where it was too difficult to remove.
The good news is I had two spray foam jobs done, both had an odor problem, and the odors went away. In the case of the closed cell foam (blue foam BASF), the ‘dead fish’ odor went away after 3 years.
The Icynene, after complete removal, took about six years to go away to faint levels in the spring time. I have now XPS (pink closed cell) foam boards instead, which don’t smell and block odors and moisture coming from the wood. Unfortunately wood absorbs odors for a long time, so if the smell is really bad, painting over it might not help much. Problem areas are always where heat is involved. In the cold months and in walls there was no problem for us.
I hope you placed a very thick plastic sheet / vapor barrier over the rock wool and over the ceiling. This helps reduce odors in the living area but there has to be some ventilation on the exterior side. I opened gable vents and build a ventilation “tunnel” under the peak of the roof so that the hot air can escape. Rock wool and fiberglass allow air and hence odors to move through, so you will want to ventilate somehow to the outside.
I’m afraid that the foam will stink for many years to come at your gym and the only way to get rid of the odors is to completely remove the foam and seal the wood with water based primers before insulating with something else. I had also ERVs installed, after the foam removal, which helped a lot and about 5-6 years later they were not needed anymore. But we removed 99% of the foam, if we had kept it, I don’t know if the odors would have dissipated by the same rate.
If removing the foam is cost prohibitive, I would first try sealing off the ceiling completely air tight with some kind of a plastic sheeting material and venting the side above the barrier.
All the best and good luck!
Savas
besides a small act of spray foam, my crawl space was encapsulated with vinyl and rubber matting underneath the floor all dirt and quite messy before but never smelled, now toxins permitted to all furniture and had to rid 1/2 of home and now 15 months later a salty taste left in air and when mopping floor with mask throat burns what is it and what is the salty taste
Hi, we just bought our dream home and i got an estimate for our crawl space to be spray foamed. After reading this article and other stories i am second guessing this. What are the alternatives? Does the rigid foam board emit these fumes/gases as well, or would that be the best kind to get? Thanks
Hi Matthew the pink or blue XPS (extruded polystyrene) boards do off-gas for a very short time. Because they are made in a factory under very well controlled conditions, the risk for a ‘smelly’ board is very low. On the other hand, spray foam somewhat of a gamble. You could also use regular styrofoam, that works also well and is cheaper. It allows more moisture to pass, and this may actually be a good thing as it allows some drying to occur if it ever gets wet underneath.
Crawl spaces can be a pain to insulate with boards, however, because of the way they may be built. Installation with boards can be much more expensive as it requires cutting and gluing, plus you have to make sure the ends/gaps between boards are spray foamed (with a can of gap filler foam) to prevent air flow past the boards. Tape might work in some places as well, as long as it sticks to the board well
Hope this helps!
Savas
Just Purchased a new constructed home in Mesa Arizona June 1st 2019. Originally thought we had fresh paint odor small 3 months have past so far It is September 6 2019 . Can not move in the house due to smell that has to be caused by foan insulation as there is nothing else. Its like walking inside a paint can . Airing out everyday even in 110 degree heat and the smell is still present. Currently Trying OZONE generators that seem to be working in parts of the house. Still working with Ozone as of today in main room and Garage Total Nightmare
Hi Mike I’m sorry to hear you are in this situation. Unfortunately, I have doubts the ozone generator will help. The odors likely come from deep inside the foam. We had success with an energy recovery ventilator. I would buy a large, whole-house ERV in your case and connect it to central A/C if you have ducts, then run it 24/7. This will be cheaper than opening windows as it pulls in air from outside but cools it with the air being pumped out. It’s likely this odor might take quite some time to fade, so fresh air is likely the only healthy option.
If you can locate a particular area where the smell comes from, that would help, too. If it’s the roof, for example, you could add a separate ventilation system in the attic.
Or, try the legal route. Move out if possible or have them pay for foam removal and restoration costs.
Good luck,
Savas
I am almost 2 years into the open cell foam salty taste and still in air and we moved and had yale hospital come out they test environment, they said my home beautiful doesn’t smell have you opened windows of house I said of course for over yr and looked for spray foam remeator, keep windows open and don’t say to anyone of spray smell, I felt like I was nuts, but realized yay new haven hospital is funded by government. Now we bought condo new mattresses, rid almost all furniture but brought plastic bins with dishes clothes etc they sat on floor while packing and that is where it penetrated from crawl space, IT IS IN MY HAIR AND ALWAYS OUR MOUTH, in the 70’s they made insulation with formaldehyde and new it was bad and stopped people who sold there home had to tell buyers of formaldehyde or they could be sued, every day I cry because we worked so very hard and lost furniture linens clothes and health and all I do is clean and paint and stay to god this will leave, I pray to God Larry Janeski Ct basement faces as much loss plus humiliation from what he did to us and never responded with an 8 yr warranty, Larry there is a God and when you go to St Jude church in Monroe Ct I hope you know there is a god waiting for you at judgement time plus all the greedy politicians making billions of dollars denying we are all getting sick and loosing our homes and lives. Democracy is wonderful ya God Bless America.
Thank you all for your comments. We have young children with allergies and were ready to hire someone to spray our whole house with insulation. Not any more!!! We hope that everyone finds a solution to their problems and we thank you all again for saving us from this horror.
We are building a new home and researching about insulation. Glad I read all the comments. What is a safe insulation ? I have Bronchieactasis lung disease . I definitely don’t won’t to make a mistake on insulation,
Hi Camille I am sorry to hear you have lung disease. I would definitely not use anything that can become airborne, like fiberglass or rock wool. I personally would use XPS. It costs a little more but is way more sturdy, durable, and insulates much better than fiberglass. It’s almost as good as using closed cell spray foam. If you cover all walls and the roof from outside with XPS, your home will be very well insulated, without the odors and without anything potentially causing problems with your lungs.
Hope this helps
Savas
Hi all. I recently had an issue with open cell foam insulation throughout a new addition – including the attic and the insulation inside walls facing the outside. The installer removed most of the insulation from the attic and inside the walls replace it with Rockwool in the walls and planning to spay closed cell (a different product) in the attic since the attic has no vents. However, I still have a lingering smell on sunny days coming from the attic although the insulation was removed approximately a month ago and the space has been vented. How long will it take for the smell to go away? And will covering the rafter with 7 inch of closed cell seal the smell? Thank you.
Hi John the new spray foam will likely cover the old smell. However it will introduce a new smell. Closed cell foam is risky business. If it’s not good you can’t remove it….
In my case the BASF blue CC foam kept smelling like bad fish for about 3 years. After the third summer heat it finally cured I guess and the smell went away.
The Icynine odor still persists nine years later despite complete removal and replacement with XPS pink foam boards. However the odor is now very faint and barely noticeable.
We had even painted the exposed wood with primer. That helped a bit because when the beams and roof deck was fully exposed, it did cover the odor to some degree.
Perhaps you could hire someone to go in there and spray paint the area with odor-neutralizing primer first. Or, a new idea, try baking soda, it might help absorb the chemicals in the air.
If you ask me, the best solution is ventilation because moisture is always going to be a problem no matter what the design says….
Savas
I moved out of home after spray foam nightmare OPEN CELL IN CRAWL SPACE ON HOTTEST DAY OF YR AND NO ONE CAME BACK TO CHECK WHEN LARRY JANESKI SENT IMMIGRANTS TO INSTALL I MOVED took little furniture or window cover and bed linens, the taste is here in condo almost 2 1/2 yrs how could I RID IN MY CAR AND HOMEWHEN i WASH MY HAIR i TASTE IT WHAT WILL TAKE IT OUT I OPEN WINDOWS EVEN IN WINTER HELP
where in connecticut fold county is there a reputable ERV company in install air intake to rid after 2 yrs taste of spray foam brought in condo after moving
Dear Savas,
Reading one of your articles on spray foam insulation, you invited people to reach out with questions so hopefully you still feel the same way you did when you wrote e that.
I have a little condominium unit in a depression-era building in Chelsea, Manhattan. I love smoking cigars so when looking for a place to buy I did my due diligence to make sure I would be in a place where i could smoke cigars in peace without having to worry that i would bother my neighbors. Long story short, after years with no issue the building has suddenly gone bonkers about smoking, has band it on the patio, even though smoking on the patio was the whole reason i bought the apartment in the first place, and the very listing agent who sold me my property after giving me all these assurances that my smoking would never be a problem is one of the principal persons involved with telling me i can’t smoke in my own home because the ceilings and walls are so porous that if i smoke it bothers her tenants in the apartment above mine (and of course her partner on the condo board passed a rule prohibiting me from smoking on the patio which is why i am smoking inside in the first place). Rather than get sucked into an argument with a bunch of crazed anti-smokers, my response has been to find ways to solve the problem such that everyone is happy (or at least, those who continue to be unhappy go find someone else to complain about). If you ever need advice on the millions of different ways to deal with cigar smoke, what air purifiers to use, how to remove the smell, etc., at this point i might be one of the world’s leading experts on the matter so please just let me know. In the meantime, I am hoping to gain some of your wisdom on insulation.
I need to create some kind of a seal between my apartment and others without ripping down all the drywall in my apartment, that is good enough to block smoke odor, and, mercifully enough, might give me some blessed relief as a good sound barrier as well. If not for the drywall, I would probably use several coats of waterproofing rubber seal followed by some other seals and several layers of soundproofing. The research I have done suggests that spray foam insulation is the best for being able to inject it in through small holes in existing drywall to fill up the spaces in the walls and ceiling. I am not sure of the differences between “injection” foam and “spray” foam, but my impression is that injection foam is a type of spray foam that works easily through injection and can fill up these spaces pretty well without tearing down the drywall and which can create an air seal (and therefore an odor barrier) and also create soundproofing. However, if I am just injecting something into my ceilings and walls that smells bad and poisons everyone, other than a bit of schadenfreude, i don’t think it really has much to offer. I know someone who started a cellulose insulation company (cleanfiber – which i am sure is the best insulation on the market) and he thinks spray foam is a dirty word much as you do and thinks that even if i cant get a contractor to install his insulation i should use some form of cellulose. Trouble is, i don’t think you can just fill up everything with cellulose without taking down the drywall and i don’t think it creates as good of an air seal. But now, reading your article about how spray foam can act like a sponge with humidity from the air, i am having horrible images of it doing the same thing for cigar odor which would be something of a nightmare.
So, my question to you is: do you have any advice? Should i look at cellulose? Or is there an injection foam that could work for this purpose? Or is there anything else you would suggest? (and if your suggestion is i should give up smoking, well, you wouldn’t be the first or the last, but as everyone knows and for some reason no one likes to admit, cigar smoking has at most very small negative health effects which in my case are surely outweighed by the massive psychological benefit i get from actually being happy because i am actually living my life my own way and because cigars are totally awesome and so completely different from cigarettes and just so much better and awesomer and well… anyway, enough on that topic).
Thank you so much for your time.
All the best,
Tom
Hi Tom
I’m not an expert. The cellulose could be injected through 3-4inch holes in the drywall between each stud, that’s what was done in my kitchen.
However cellulose, no matter how well it’s packed, will let air through and settle with time as well, creating air pockets with no insulation at the top. Cellulose also absorbs smoke and dirt from the air moving through, a lot, I can tell from my reno work.
Closed cell foam is really the only insulation I’m aware of that would seal it air tight.
But that would definitely require taking down the drywall. Injecting foam, as far as I know, also doesn’t work as well and may cause the drywall to swell.
As a non-smoker, but I like occasional cigars, I know that smoke sticks to everything, especially drywall, clothing, furniture. It’s difficult to achieve what you want to do.
Sealing doors and windows should be the first strategy. Then use powerful air purifiers to neutralize the smoke where it happens.
Making a stick frame construction absolutely air tight is probably only possible by spraying everything with closed cell foam or using XPS boards and spray between studs and boards to create a seal as I did. The floor can be sealed with a plastic foil but obviously this would be a major project and you will need new drywall.
The purifiers would definitely still be needed.
It may be cheaper to move….
Hope this helps!
Savas
Hey i was wondering if there is a way to tell if your spray foam is toxic?
We just bought a house and it’s been spray foamed but we have no idea when, it doesn’t smell bad, it’s blue, just curious if we should worry
The blue foam is probably BASF closed cell. I had this installed too. It stank like fish for about 3 years and then stopped smelling.
In general the most often health complaint when bad foam is present is respiratory related. Sinus infections, sore throat, dizziness, headaches, pain in lungs, coughing, etc., that sort of thing.
If you keep getting these much more often, especially in the summer when it would be unusual to have these infections, and especially if you don’t suffer from allergies, I would be concerned.
Try switching off the A/C on a very hot and humid day, ideally for several days in a row with the windows shut. See if excess humidity shows anywhere in the upper floor and whether you notice a pain like or fish like smell in the house.
Usually the odors become noticeable when there is high humidity and high heat, those help activate chemical reactions in the foam if it isn’t fully cured. Keeping the windows shut will help concentrate these chemicals in the house, so that at some point you will notice them
Hope this helps!
Savas
I feel like we have made a terrible, costly mistake! We had decided to get our walk up attic redone into a den/bonus room. The contractors of course suggested spray foam. I wish we had looked into it more. They did not tell us to leave the house, but as soon as they started, I grabbed my kids with their breakfast and all and ran them out to the car to go to their grandma’s. It’s been well over a week. The attic has that awful sweet smell I’m hearing about. Sometimes it lingers to the 2nd floor, sometimes it doesn’t smell until I open the attic door. Regardless, plans for the attic are shut down. I want the insulation out, the company and my husband keep saying “wait a few more days.” The company says no one ever asked to have it removed. What sort of trouble am I in here? How can I get this stuff out of my home safely? It’s open cell. The company took a piece to test it, but I won’t believe it when it comes back “safe.”
Hi Pam, thank you for sharing your story. Other than removing the foam, and it doesn’t come off easy but it does come off with scraping (use a roofing nail stripper tool), you could buy an ERV.
I used an Energy Recovery Ventilators to bring in clean air from outside all day and night. This might work for you, depending on your climate and depending on the level of off-gassing you are experiencing.
I removed the foam 11 years ago and on the first hot-humid days of the year, the smell still returns a tiny bit. It gets into the wood, too.
But the main thing is to remove the bulk of the foam. Then paint with primer over the wood to seal it before installing other insulation. This was the crucial step I didn’t consider back then.
All the best
Savas
Pam, did you ever solve this? I am currently in an identical situation… 2 weeks in now, and still smells.
Hi Savas,
I recently had spray foam installed in the house I’m building. It is closed cell, and there is 4″ in the walls and 6″ in the cathedral ceiling. It has been over 2 months since it was put in and there is still a smell. It is the same type of smell that was there right after they sprayed it. It is not the fishy smell that people say closed cell can have, it is more like what you described as a new paint or almost sweet/fresh chemical smell. Have you heard of people having that kind of smell from closed cell?
Have you heard of people having a smell that lasted for months but then goes away and not having to remove the foam?
I think when they installed it, there wasn’t proper ventilation, and it was several days before the windows were opened to air out the building. Is it possible that the wood soaked in the VOCs and now the smell is still in the building because the wood soaked up the smell, or is it more likely that the foam is off gasing?
I bought a couple air monitors, and the TVOC in the building is right at the threshold for still being ok, but it doesn’t indicate what those VOCs are, so it doesn’t confirm that it is safe because some of the VOCs that can come from spray foam have a very low safety tolerance.
Are you aware of specific tests that can be done to see if there are harmful chemical levels being off gased?
Im basically in a situation where I either have to move forward with sheatock and finishing the house and then do the following:
– Im installing an HRV air exchanger, with a max 110 cfm for a 1100 sf house
– I would caulk the penetrations in the sheatrock to limit the off gasing that would come into the house
– I would run air purifiers with a good amount of activated carbon, (IQ Air and Austin air purifiers)
Or I would have to remove the foam which would be a very difficult process.
Based on your expertise do you think the steps I mentioned would remove the smell?
Have you also heard of painting over the foam to help stop the smell or putting poly over it?
Sorry to throw so many questions at you. I’m just in a uncertain spot and looking for any guidance.
I agree with you that spray foam is not worth it and I would never use it again. Much better off with XPS foam or mineral wool.
Thanks!
Hi Jake
thank you for sharing your story.
My experience with closed cell is that it will eventually stop smelling but it could/will take a few years. I suspect the areas exposed to more humidity and heat will cure faster, such as in the cathedral ceiling.
I believe the choices to add an HRV and air purifiers are good ones. If the sheetrock is still exposed, I would paint it with zero VOC water based primer.
Covering it up with a plastic sheet also helps reduce air flow. If you are worried about the potential for mold, there is a product made by certainteed that allows high moisture to pass through.
Removing closed cell is probably not practical. That stuff is extremely strong.
If I had to do this again I would add XPS outside, not inside, before installing the roof. Insulating from the inside is very difficult and risky. If there are leaks, there will be moisture and mold. When you insulate outside, all the bad stuff stays outside, the stink, the insects, the odors, etc.
It’s the smarter solution but can cost more to install.
Another point I would like to make, there are some new air purifiers. I bought a Winix, it has a different kind of ionizer that you can switch on/off. It appears to make a noticeable difference with VOCs.
I think with the HRV and enough purifiers you could probably protect your family, as long as you can make the odor disappear.
Also, now in the winter it’s not going to smell as much. It’s the summer that will be stinky….
Good luck and keep us posted!
Savas
We had to build a new home 2.5 years ago due to me getting very ill from mold exposure-(house was built in the early 60’s in Central gulf coast FL). We tried to make the best decisions during construction to control moisture, humidity and ultimately, mold growth potential. We decided on Dimilec closed cell foam encapsulation in our attic. First of all, the new house smell (fresh paint) has just now faded after well over 2
years. We are changing out our light colored shingle roof for a dark metal roof as I am petrified of leaks and a rotting roof. Here’s what we are experiencing now-as the afternoon progresses-eyes begin to burn, pressure headaches and a general unwell feeling.
Could the darker metal roof be causing addition offgassing? We don’t really smell anything and my wife is not experiencing g symptoms. I have decided to set an IQAire voc filter unit in our attic in hopes that it filters the vocs-I just pray that the offgassing eventually stops, sooner than later. Does anyone have any similar experience with Dimilec brand closed cell foam?
Hi Bill
a darker roof gets hotter. When I installed mine, I went for almost pure white, which reflects about 80-90%+ of the sun’s energy. The hotter roof will definitely cause chemical reactions (if there are any) to take place at a higher rate.
Whether your symptoms are related to the foam, I can’t say.
If you see that the problem persists when you shut all windows on a hot day and perhaps goes away when you ventilate really well, that would indicate an air quality problem as a possibility.
You could try activated carbon filters and change them often. I found those very useful.
Savas
Hi Savas,
We are about to install open cell insulation in our attic. We are in New England and our attic is totally uninsulated but we use it for a lot of storage and our second floor air handler (heat/ac) resides up there, the basement crawl space houses all other utilities. I am just researching now because of our pet and I’m seeing a lot of disturbing info about this spray foam! My husband is extremely sensitive/reactive to strong odor and suffers from chronic sinusitis. I am seriously worried. We are also supposed to have our basement sealed around the perimeter with the closed cell spray foam. I don’t know what to to do since my hubby put down a 50% deposit already. Is there another type of insulation that is less problematic/scary?
Amy info is much appreciated!
Hi Kirsten
technically you might be able to rescind the contract despite the deposit, if no work was performed yet. Either way, they could only demand payment for actual losses but rescinding a contract is never a simple thing to do and it would make sense to hire a lawyer. Perhaps you could agree on changing the insulation material to something non-toxic. I would assume the company would prefer to keep the money and reach a new agreement with you rather than losing the deal.
If your husband is sensitive it may be risky to install spray foam in the house. As far as lingering odors goes, I had better experiences with closed cell foam than with open cell foam. However the latter is easier to remove. Closed cell foam is pretty much permanent, there is no way to my knowledge to remove it other than removing the ceiling/wall/whatever it was sprayed on. My closed cell foam stank for ‘only’ three years, so it may be the better option if you must install it.
I think one mistake with closed cell foam is that too much is sprayed in one go and it doesn’t allow it to cure properly. It basically seals itself and inside it remains liquid and or at least partially still chemically active.
Perhaps one solution would be to have them spray a small, uncritical area first and see how it goes. Or ask them if you could visit a house a few days after it was sprayed with the same material and see if your body reacts to the odors
Hope this helps!
Savas
I have a problem with Closed Cell Spray foam that installer refuses to accept responsibly for that was recommended by our general contractor. Does anyone know of any good lawyers in the IN,OH,KY,TN,WV area that will win our case for a complete removal and restoration? We have lived with the foam for over a year and it’s always worse when it’s hot, sunny, and humid. The foam is sprayed on the roof deck up to 7″ thick in some places. The foam tested isn’t raw, but it was sprayed too thick and or hot.