I want to install an hydronic radiant heating system in my house. The system would need to put under the existing floor between the joists. I have found a company that specializes in providing the materials and assistance to do it yourselfers. But the propane company says that to hook up a new water heater I will need a couple of permits – gas and plumbing. Which can only be issued to a plumber. So my question is this – how do I find a plumber that is willing to do the permitting but will allow me to do the installation of the tubing and manifolds?
Hi Tom
thanks for your comment!
If you don’t want to use your existing water heater as I did, I would simply contact a few plumbers and have them install the water heater you want. If they ask too many questions tell them you want it as a ‘backup’ (^_^). Then once they are gone (and perhaps after inspection if required) you can easily cut the pipes and rearrange the inputs/outputs as you need it.
I had mine installed for domestic hot water and added the heating component later to it. If your water heater is tank based (not tankless) it’s really easy to use your existing system by just adding a circulation pump. I would strongly recommend opting for a closed loop, however, as you wouldn’t want to drink, wash dishes, or shower using that water…
Hope this helps!
Savas
@Tom, not sure if you’re still tracking this thread, but I’d like to add my slightly different perspective.
Since you don’t have low-cost natural gas, you should consider inexpensive and easier-to-install-and-maintain electric radiant heat. As with hydronics, you can install radiant electric heating elements in the joist spaces. If you have carpet, baseboard radiant would be preferable.
Depending on your marginal winter electric rate, it may actually cost less to heat with electricity than with propane. But even if electric cost more, it costs a lot less to install and maintain, and has a much longer lifespan. Here’s the math:
Multiply your marginal winter electric rate (i.e., highest tier you’re likely to reach with electric heat) by 29.3. That’s the cost per 100,000 BTU of heat, or therm, delivered to the space. For propane, divide $/gal by 0.916, which yields the price per therm (1 gallon contains ~91.600 BTU). For example, if you assume $2/gal, then the price per therm is $2.18. But this is the input value. If you use a conventional storage water heater, it will likely have a seasonal efficiency (EF) of 0.59 to 0.62 (i.e., 59% to 62%), so you need to divide again by the EF. For example, if the water heater has an EF of 0.6, then the cost per therm delivered would be $2.18/0.6 = $3.63. If you plan to install a high efficiency condensing heater (tankless or storage), the cost per therm will be lower, but your first-cost will be a lot higher. Keep in mind that using a tankless domestic water heater for space heat can void the warranty since they are designed to heat cold water only. So the choices are a boiler or a storage heater dedicated to space heat. And as Papa said, you don’t want to mix your potable water with the loop water.
Then you have to consider differences in first cost, maintenance and life expectancy. Unless your electric rate is much higher than average, the savings with propane is unlikely to be enough to recover the additional ownership costs within the life of the water heater and other components. At least that’s been my experience. I do this sort of analysis routinely in my work.
One final consideration… propane prices are highly volatile over time relative to electricity. Current prices are low. So you need to consider the likely average cost difference over the life of the system when doing your analysis.
Hello! I had spray foam insulation put in my rim joists in my basement on August 29, 2016. Also that day cellulose was put in the attic. My face has been swelling since. I have been to many various doctors, Now I’m seeing a environmental doctor. A attic guy thinks its the spray foam. I was thinking I should have it taken out but cannot find a company that does that. What do u think I should do?
Hi Beth
I’m sorry to hear that.
From my experience, the typical spray foam odor is like paint, “sweet” if it is open cell, the soft foam. The closed cell foam, the harder foam, smells like rotten fish.
It’s not uncommon to develop allergies after chronic exposure to gases coming from spray foam products.
I would consider scraping it yourself. You could hire a team of youngsters to do it. If it is the soft foam you can use a shingle stripper (like this one http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/1000/5a/5ab4f668-8fce-40e4-b933-9b663908bf0a_1000.jpg) that is used to take down asphalt shingles from roofs. That tool worked well for us.
If you have closed cell foam, it’s going to be very difficult to remove I’m afraid. But with a shingle stripper you could probably remove that, too. It’s just going to be much more work…
Hope this helps
My family and I had to move out of our home and never were able to go back in due to improper closed cell spray foam. It has been one long nightmare. I would never recommend spray foam to anyone.
had crawlspace encapsulated and open cell put in small area now crawl space doesn’t smell but mattresses walls floors and even when you talk something toxic heavy in air, should we have insulation out and if it is spray foam if removed would house still smell or taste toxic
Hi Leona
that’s a good question. Unfortunately the odors “stick” to all kinds of materials. I would try to open the crawl space to the outside air so that it is well vented. Especially when the weather heats up. You may be lucky if you can contain the odors by ventilating.
A very good thing to have in that case in your house is a ERV. These ventilators aren’t cheap but they help a lot with these odors. I used mine for 5-6 years and it helped.
Please make sure you buy one that has a washable core. Do not buy one that isn’t 100% washable; you might get other lung problems as these ERV core gets dirty.
Hope this helps!
Savas
Hi Savas,
I am wondering if a layer of Green Glue would stick between an XPS board and plywood panel. I read your article comparing XPS to fiberglass, and it was mentioned that almost nothing sticks to XPS. Would I need to nail plywood (or any other material) directly onto the XPS board, so that a layer of glue is applied to the plywood instead, before attaching the other plywood panel?
Hi Proton
I have no idea if green glue would work. I know Home Depot sells a product that is specifically made for XPS. It worked for me when I glued the boards on the basement walls. You could also try regular paint primer, it might work.
I would simply try and see if it works. I wouldn’t create any holes in the XPS because vapor will find its way in there and you will get condensation. Holes can be filled with Great Stuff polyurethane foam if need be.
Savas
I want to install an hydronic radiant heating system in my house. The system would need to put under the existing floor between the joists. I have found a company that specializes in providing the materials and assistance to do it yourselfers. But the propane company says that to hook up a new water heater I will need a couple of permits – gas and plumbing. Which can only be issued to a plumber. So my question is this – how do I find a plumber that is willing to do the permitting but will allow me to do the installation of the tubing and manifolds?
Hi Tom
thanks for your comment!
If you don’t want to use your existing water heater as I did, I would simply contact a few plumbers and have them install the water heater you want. If they ask too many questions tell them you want it as a ‘backup’ (^_^). Then once they are gone (and perhaps after inspection if required) you can easily cut the pipes and rearrange the inputs/outputs as you need it.
I had mine installed for domestic hot water and added the heating component later to it. If your water heater is tank based (not tankless) it’s really easy to use your existing system by just adding a circulation pump. I would strongly recommend opting for a closed loop, however, as you wouldn’t want to drink, wash dishes, or shower using that water…
Hope this helps!
Savas
@Tom, not sure if you’re still tracking this thread, but I’d like to add my slightly different perspective.
Since you don’t have low-cost natural gas, you should consider inexpensive and easier-to-install-and-maintain electric radiant heat. As with hydronics, you can install radiant electric heating elements in the joist spaces. If you have carpet, baseboard radiant would be preferable.
Depending on your marginal winter electric rate, it may actually cost less to heat with electricity than with propane. But even if electric cost more, it costs a lot less to install and maintain, and has a much longer lifespan. Here’s the math:
Multiply your marginal winter electric rate (i.e., highest tier you’re likely to reach with electric heat) by 29.3. That’s the cost per 100,000 BTU of heat, or therm, delivered to the space. For propane, divide $/gal by 0.916, which yields the price per therm (1 gallon contains ~91.600 BTU). For example, if you assume $2/gal, then the price per therm is $2.18. But this is the input value. If you use a conventional storage water heater, it will likely have a seasonal efficiency (EF) of 0.59 to 0.62 (i.e., 59% to 62%), so you need to divide again by the EF. For example, if the water heater has an EF of 0.6, then the cost per therm delivered would be $2.18/0.6 = $3.63. If you plan to install a high efficiency condensing heater (tankless or storage), the cost per therm will be lower, but your first-cost will be a lot higher. Keep in mind that using a tankless domestic water heater for space heat can void the warranty since they are designed to heat cold water only. So the choices are a boiler or a storage heater dedicated to space heat. And as Papa said, you don’t want to mix your potable water with the loop water.
Then you have to consider differences in first cost, maintenance and life expectancy. Unless your electric rate is much higher than average, the savings with propane is unlikely to be enough to recover the additional ownership costs within the life of the water heater and other components. At least that’s been my experience. I do this sort of analysis routinely in my work.
One final consideration… propane prices are highly volatile over time relative to electricity. Current prices are low. So you need to consider the likely average cost difference over the life of the system when doing your analysis.
I hope this is helpful. And not too late ; -)
Hello! I had spray foam insulation put in my rim joists in my basement on August 29, 2016. Also that day cellulose was put in the attic. My face has been swelling since. I have been to many various doctors, Now I’m seeing a environmental doctor. A attic guy thinks its the spray foam. I was thinking I should have it taken out but cannot find a company that does that. What do u think I should do?
Hi Beth
I’m sorry to hear that.
From my experience, the typical spray foam odor is like paint, “sweet” if it is open cell, the soft foam. The closed cell foam, the harder foam, smells like rotten fish.
It’s not uncommon to develop allergies after chronic exposure to gases coming from spray foam products.
I would consider scraping it yourself. You could hire a team of youngsters to do it. If it is the soft foam you can use a shingle stripper (like this one http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/1000/5a/5ab4f668-8fce-40e4-b933-9b663908bf0a_1000.jpg) that is used to take down asphalt shingles from roofs. That tool worked well for us.
If you have closed cell foam, it’s going to be very difficult to remove I’m afraid. But with a shingle stripper you could probably remove that, too. It’s just going to be much more work…
Hope this helps
My family and I had to move out of our home and never were able to go back in due to improper closed cell spray foam. It has been one long nightmare. I would never recommend spray foam to anyone.
had crawlspace encapsulated and open cell put in small area now crawl space doesn’t smell but mattresses walls floors and even when you talk something toxic heavy in air, should we have insulation out and if it is spray foam if removed would house still smell or taste toxic
Hi Leona
that’s a good question. Unfortunately the odors “stick” to all kinds of materials. I would try to open the crawl space to the outside air so that it is well vented. Especially when the weather heats up. You may be lucky if you can contain the odors by ventilating.
A very good thing to have in that case in your house is a ERV. These ventilators aren’t cheap but they help a lot with these odors. I used mine for 5-6 years and it helped.
Please make sure you buy one that has a washable core. Do not buy one that isn’t 100% washable; you might get other lung problems as these ERV core gets dirty.
Hope this helps!
Savas
Do you have a reccomend action for a dentist without exrays for Orange County ca. Preferably south oc.
where in connecticut could you buy rev with washable core
Hi Gia
I would look online for online vendors. I bought my ERVs from supplyhouse and Amazon I believe
Savas
Hi Savas,
I am wondering if a layer of Green Glue would stick between an XPS board and plywood panel. I read your article comparing XPS to fiberglass, and it was mentioned that almost nothing sticks to XPS. Would I need to nail plywood (or any other material) directly onto the XPS board, so that a layer of glue is applied to the plywood instead, before attaching the other plywood panel?
Hi Proton
I have no idea if green glue would work. I know Home Depot sells a product that is specifically made for XPS. It worked for me when I glued the boards on the basement walls. You could also try regular paint primer, it might work.
I would simply try and see if it works. I wouldn’t create any holes in the XPS because vapor will find its way in there and you will get condensation. Holes can be filled with Great Stuff polyurethane foam if need be.
Savas